Pressure, Patterns, And The Nervous System In A Hyperconnected World with Mandy Morris

Your nervous system is not broken. It's responding exactly the way it was trained.

When email, Slack, social media, and nonstop entertainment flood your brain all day, your body reads "constant input" as "constant threat." A lot of us end up composed on the outside while feeling stuck, reactive, and exhausted on the inside, and we can't figure out why.

In this episode, I sit down with Mandy Morris, a licensed professional counselor, executive psychology coach, and EMDR clinician, to unpack how pressure exposes the hidden patterns running underneath high achievers. 

We go deep on why insight alone rarely creates lasting behavior change, what happens to your decision-making when stress hijacks the prefrontal cortex, and how productivity and self-worth quietly fuse into a loop that's hard to turn off.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why the nervous system treats digital overload as a survival threat
• How high achievers develop patterns under pressure that eventually work against them
• Why success doesn't heal you, it amplifies what's already there
• The identity crash that can follow a big goal, and the physiology behind it
• How to become an "inner scientist" who notices a thought without instantly believing it
• A free bilateral stimulation app that can help you downshift in under two minutes

If you've ever hit a big milestone and felt a strange emptiness afterward, or if you're running on fumes and can't explain why, this conversation will give you a framework for understanding what's actually happening and what to do about it.

Listen, share it with someone who needs it, and subscribe so you don't miss what's next.

Mandy's website: https://internaledge.my.canva.site/

Mandy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandymorris/

Mandy's TEDx Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQOFmRwtR4o

The Underlayer YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/@the_under_layer

The Underlayer Podcast Website: https://www.theunderlayerpodcast.com/

David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/

Transcript

Composed Outside, Stuck Inside

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Do you feel composed on the outside but stuck on the inside? What about patterns that help you helped you succeed that are starting to cost you something? And what happens when pressure builds and your nervous system reaches for the same old response, whether that still serves you or not? That's what this episode of The Underlayer is about, to show where we go beneath the surface, try to find out what's really driving behavior. I'm David Young, your host. I work with coaches and consultants to help their businesses run leaner, earn more, and take less of their time. And today I'm joined by Mandy Morris, a licensed professional counselor, executive psychology coach, and an EMDR clinician. She's also a TEDx speaker and creator of the Internal Edge, a neuroscience informed framework for high achievers, and co-founder of So Free, where she works as the chief of mental health science. We'll talk about how pressure reveals hidden patterns, why insight alone is usually not enough to change them, and what it actually takes to lead with more clarity and steadiness instead of constantly overriding your own nervous nervous system. Mandy, thanks for coming on the show. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Thanks, David.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

Happy to be here.

Nervous System Basics Today

SPEAKER_03 1:01

So let's just start. I assume everybody knows what we mean by nervous system regulation, but just in case someone doesn't, just high-level just explain kind of like what that means, regulating your nervous system.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah, so everybody has a nervous system. Uh that's nerves that go from our body from the top of our head to the tips of our toes. And um it's you know part of our threat response. It's part of what regulates mood, digestion. There's lots of things that go into the nervous system. Uh the biggest thing that we associate nervous system with, though, is stress, anxiety. Uh what you know, we need our nervous system for when a threat happens so that we can get the adrenaline dumped so we can, you know, fight back or flee. Uh so but what used to be the saber-tooth tiger is now our email and our notifications interboss. So it it now our nervous system gets all out of whack because of evolution.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

Yeah, I don't think it was designed for the uh multiple Slack channels, six social media channels, constant email updates, um, instant access to all information at all times. I think I don't think that was part of part of the program.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Not part of the

Phone Anxiety And Tech-Free Spaces

SPEAKER_00 2:20

design. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Um so yeah, I think I think that's a big part of it. You know, I mean, I think most people have a phone, most people have a smartphone, and if you're not careful, it just it'll take it just takes over your life. Like you can just spend all day. I mean, I feel like everybody's attached to it. Um my kids have phones now, it's never more than an inch away from their hands. Um they're constantly checking it. Um and they don't even do anything on it. Like there's not even anything important for them to even be looking at. Um, but yes, like they're just addicted to the moving. I always say just moving colored pictures. That's all you guys use your phone for. Umulation. Yeah. And then they get hooked. Um, and the Instagram shorts and the YouTube shorts, and like I'll watch my son, he just scrolls and scrolls and scrolls, and I'm like, that's just one useless video after another. You're literally getting nothing out of that. Doesn't that except for dopamine hits? Well, right, yeah, the dopamine button. Yeah. Doesn't that get old? Like, don't you want to just stop watching it? Right. No, no, I do this for hours. Um, and then you factor in, like, you know, working adults, and you got, you know, family and friends and group chats and multiple Slacks and email and work email. And I mean, I have like four personal email accounts that I use, um, which I don't even know why, as I say that out loud, but I do. And then you've got work, and it just like constantly just kind of constantly feel like you're just constantly checking to see what you should be checking.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then if you're because we're now trained to be that way, and we literally can run our business from the computer on our phone, if we don't have it, then we feel like we're falling behind. And then we get into the sort of uh, you know, again, fear response. And and then, you know, the monkey mind starts worrying about all the things that we haven't you haven't done. And um, now I might lose my job because I haven't looked at my phone. I mean, you're not consciously thinking that, but very deep in the subconscious is all these uh these fears because you don't have your phone right on you.

SPEAKER_03 4:26

Yeah, it's you almost just feel completely naked, like in the wilderness. Like when you with your phone, if you like lose, if you're anybody's ever like lost their phone, I mean it's complete panic, right? Because like everything is in there, your calendar, all your contacts, like all your information is like there. And if it's gone for like two minutes, you're like, oh my god, that's my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, yeah. I I think of it as like pseudo pseudo safety.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Yeah. That's a good that's a good term. Um we went we took uh we went to Gatlinburg last year for spring break, five days, and I mandated that everyone and myself included, like basically no devices. Um no iPads, uh, no phones other than like maps to wherever we were going. Um we were just taking a break. We we did the we colored, uh, we played like board games.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 5:16

Um and then obviously we most of the time were spent, you know, kind of hiking and and out and about. Um and we all everything was fine. Like the world didn't end, we all survived. Um like it was great, like it was so freeing and comforting to like just not have to like check my phone and look at LinkedIn or check right text messages, like all that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

I bet your nervous system was more regulated.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it was. Um, obviously that's not possible for most people, you know, in right in this modern life. Like you can't just be like, well, that's it, I'm out. Um so I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

I do recommend tech-free zones in your house.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

What do you mean by that? Oh, like like certain like certain spaces in the house where you don't use it?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yep, yeah, yep, yep. Like this is a no-phone zone. This is a no-screen zone. This is a where I just think or I am creative, but there's no no phones allowed here and the whole family knows. Um it kind of becomes this sort of peaceful place. And it's interesting if if you can get in a habit of making that a part of the household rule, or even for yourself, you'll find you start to like crave it. Because once you start to experience it and you experience the fact that you don't fall apart, and then you experience the relief you feel from not from having the break from it, then you start to want want it more. It's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah, that's good. I'm now I'm trying to think how can I implement that? My most of my family, they take their phones to the bathroom. Oh, and as someone with OCD, first of all, that's I think it's disgusting. Um I've never taken my phone. And I don't talk, I'm not talking public. I'm talking in the house.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Right.

SPEAKER_03 7:06

Um, and I'm like, first of all, how long are you planning on being in there? Um like can't you just can't just leave the phone out? Like it's it's not a long trip here. Um second of all, like what do you like you're on all the time anyway. You can't just take like a five-minute bathroom break to be phone free. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

It's just so maybe you can start implementing bathroom time.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Should we not take it to free time? Um I'm yeah, I don't know. It's weird, but yeah. Um but I the the I work three days a week. I have a contract full-time job currently, and I'm there three days a week, and I've seen people bring it like into the public bathroom, which again is completely disgusting. Um and it's like I've watched a guy use the urinal, one hand doing his business and one hand holding the phone up. And I'm like, I don't like what are we doing? Like, right. How long are you gonna how long? It's this doesn't take a long time. This is not a long process. Like, leave the phone at your desk, man. That show pauses. All the shows, Netflix, YouTube, there's a pause button. It's not gonna play with that. This is not 1982. You don't have to be live. Yeah, but yeah, it's just that addiction.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Further confirmation, yeah, of of how addicted everybody is to their phone.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

I can't even take two minutes to walk to the bathroom and then come back and just resume programming like I have.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Because there's literally anxiety that is felt when that is put away, when it's separate from you. That's why people don't do it. It's because it doesn't feel good to not have it with me. So I don't care if I'm taking a pee and I'm having it in the other hand because I don't like how it feels to not have it with me.

Escapism, Dopamine, And Too Many Options

SPEAKER_03 8:48

To not have it. Yeah, I read I I read this many years ago. It's kind of kind of before I think streaming was relatively new, certainly not what it is today. And it was saying that like it was really talking, it was like kind of political in governments, but the point was that basically as a society, as long as a majority of society has like enough food and general safety, shelter, and then entertainment. So those were like the three things that basically governments can do whatever they want because people are too distracted to notice. Yeah. And I that lives like rent-free in my head. And then now I really think about it because now you know we have all of this entertainment. Like there's I don't even know how many streaming channels there are, plus all the social media, plus there's just so much, there's so much, right? Like you can just you can find programming entertainment literally instantly and it's across so many platforms, and then you just think like with what's going on like in the world, and I'm like, oh, like we're all just we're all just so distracted. Like we're all right.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

It's a built-in diversion strategy, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:58

We're just all here in some form, and then like all this stuff is just happening, and we're like, oh, I didn't even oh I didn't even know I didn't see that. Like I didn't even like I didn't even know that. And I don't know, it's kind of scary to think about um that we just constantly have there's just all of this, there's just all of this entertainment. And I'll literally scroll Netflix for like 45 minutes. This drives my wife crazy. And I won't find it, I won't watch anything.

unknown 10:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

We watched all the trailers, but not an actual show or a movie.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

I don't even watch the trailers, I'm just like look at it like, no, no, no. She's like, you've met you basically have memorized like everything that's on there. Yeah. Like just pick something. Like, yeah, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Like we've seen the well, and that's the thing is we're inundated with so many options now. It's too much too many options, yeah. And it and it and it's but like that's also become between all the streaming channels, the options, all of that. I mean, that's this is now our escapism as well.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Yeah, I don't know. I think almost I think we almost need an escape from the escapism then. Like we need to escape. Like how many I mean, we've watched a lot of shows. Like, if you named like a popular show, like we've probably seen it or at least tried it. And it's like, how many of those do I need to watch? Like, they're all pretty much the same. You can predict the plot of like everything, you know how it's gonna go. It's like, do I just need to keep watching like different characters in a slightly different setting, basically doing the same thing? Like, I don't do I need to keep doing that? I don't need I don't think I need to keep doing that. And then we watch a lot of sports, and I feel like sports at least, you know, you don't know the outcome, and it's somewhat yeah, it's the same but different. Um, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

But let's think about this. Why? This is a pattern that everybody gets into. So why do we do it?

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Well, it's easy. Um it's you know, you just flip on the remote and you know cue something up. Um it's feels safe, I think. You know, like you're even when you know it's gonna happen, you're like, oh yeah, it's kind of like I'm interested in this. Like we we like like you know, spy, the government, spy type shows, CIA, FBI, whatever.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah. Um let's think of the inverse.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

If you didn't do that, what would you be doing?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Taking sports away too?

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Um I would probably do more yard work.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

I would run more, I'd probably play more golf.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Those things require a lot more effort.

SPEAKER_03 12:30

I'd probably read more.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Still more effort.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yeah. Some form, some combination of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

All things that when you do it, you feel much better in the long run, but they require so much more effort up front.

unknown 12:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

And we're so used to instant gratification. We want the we want the off button.

SPEAKER_03 12:56

Yeah, and I think too, like especially when you work full time, and especially if it's still in an office, which seems to be kind of coming back, like most seems like most companies are kind of forcing the five days a week in an office. So I think if you spend nine or ten hours, you know, grinding out a cubicle job of whatever type, and then you come home, then the thought of like doing yard work, running, going to play golf, reading a book, like whatever. Like, yeah, it does it that that seems like, yeah, I'm too tired. Like I don't I don't feel like doing that. So it's just, yeah, you just flip the TV on and I'll find somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

And then you just kind of zone out for like three or four hours and then go to bed and do it all over again. Or life. Um so yeah, so talk so you talked about the pattern, like that's a like a repeatable pattern.

Patterns That Once Helped

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Um talk about that, like the patterns versus problems that I've seen you talk about. That's an interesting concept.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

You know, we all have our habits or our hangups or you know, things that that get in the way, or you know, I and they turn into labels a lot of times, like I'm someone who uh has anxiety, or I'm someone who um maybe gets depressed, or I'm someone who um uh isn't good at socializing, or I like I don't know, fill in the blank, whatever you think your problem is. Um it's actually not it might be causing you problems, but in reality, it's probably something that developed or is something that developed um as a adaptive technique strategy when you were much younger. That's a pattern in your mind, and now it's just no longer serving you well anymore. And and you know, you see this all all the time in in various forms. You know, a lot of the the high achievers that I work with, um one of one of the biggest things I see is the inability to be able to turn it off, right? That constantly going and doing and uh you know they meet meet one goal, then they're on to the next, and then the next, and there's no there's no rest. And yet every high achievement entrepreneur wants freedom, right? And yet they create this sort of unintentionally chaos of always having to be on and go and go. And so part of what I look at with people is you know, what what is driving that behavior? Um because it's it's a pattern on repeat. It's it's a loop that runs that usually gets developed in your mind from a really young age. Um for a lot of people, if we're sticking with that example, you know, um maybe you grow up you grew up in a home where you had to be responsible for everything. And so you have a high sense of responsibility. And um, and so you start to take on responsibility for things that aren't yours and you don't know how to turn that off. And it's just this pattern that keeps on going. Or maybe there's a deep sense of self-worth and value connected to productivity. And if I'm not producing, then I don't feel of value and worth. I don't feel good enough. And so I'm stuck in this pattern now of always having to produce, right? And so it's it's not what it seems. It usually has to do with you're stuck in a pattern because of something you're believing about yourself that you don't realize that you are. But back then it it helped because it helped you survive uh home life, it helped you get acceptance from your parents or your friends, or it helped in some way meet some sort of need. It's just it's just not helping you anymore.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Yeah. What so what do you do? So let's let's go with uh like the entrepreneur or high achiever running a business. That is what I think a lot of people don't realize is you it's actually a lot harder than being just an employee because you take on there's just so much you have to handle when it's like your own thing. So using that as an example, then how do you help them try to turn that off or at least be able to like step away and not feel guilty and not just constantly take on like more and more and more? Like how do you start how do you try to help to disrupt that those patterns?

SPEAKER_00 17:56

Yeah.

Why Insight Alone Doesn’t Change

SPEAKER_00 17:57

So I mean it starts with recognizing that you can't fix what you don't understand. And in my work with high achievers, uh, they don't lack intellect. And so um I'm I'm not here to just give them more knowledge, but we we need to do a little bit of digging. Um that doesn't mean that we're gonna do therapy, uh, but there we gotta drill down to there is a invisible force that is driving your behavior. And as in the the great words of one of our founding fathers of psychology, Carl Jung, until we make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And it's uh one of my favorite quotes, it's so true, because you know, nine 95, 90 to 95 percent of our brain is our subconscious long-term memory. And so um I do some drilling down with the people that I work with because it's it's not the same for everybody, you know, what um, you know, the inabilities to slow down for someone could be rooted in um, you know, this value and self-worth issue for one person, or you know, this fear slowing down and resting could be rooted in uh it doesn't feel safe to issue for another person based off of you know how they got, you know, what happened with their wiring um, you know, growing up and um in their childhood and into their adult life. And so we've got to we've got to look under the the hood of the mind and revisit what what is it that you are believing about you, because that belief system is now creating a ceiling for you. So we uncover what that is and then look at where your nervous system starts to have triggers around um around that old belief. And so for instance, um, you know, every time I like let's say I've, you know, because I've done this, I'll take a personal example. I I have told myself I won't see clients on Fridays. What do I do? I see clients on Fridays.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Fuck somebody for Friday.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

So how am I being complicit in the conditions I say I don't want? What is my part in that? Coming from a belief of, oh my gosh, what if you know, I don't have enough clients, so I need to make sure that I have enough clients to that bottom, you know, and on and on and on. Um and and then we have to learn how to bring our nervous system into a more regulated state while consciously telling ourselves a different narrative because we know what we were, we know now what's going on in the subconscious, right? But you can't do one without the other because we lose access to our rational thinking and decision making when we have a jacked-up nervous system. So when we're in a heightened state and and um high achievers in particular, um, you know, entrepreneurs, business owners, uh, I mean, anybody who I mean most of us in our in our world these days, if you're go, go, go all the time, you have a heightened nervous system. Um and what happens is the blood flow in the body literally changes. We lose access to the prefrontal parts of the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for rational thinking and decision making. So you are literally not clear, not at your Best when that is happening. And we need it, we need a little bit of that. We don't need to be calm all the time. I'm not saying that. We need we need to have some adrenaline. But to live in chronic states of that, you're not going to have an innovative brain. There's enough research to know that a relaxed mind is an innovative mind. And so we have to break through these sorts of beliefs that if I if I stop and rest and relax, I'm going to fall behind. There's all these sort of other secondary, I call them blocking beliefs that get in the way as well. And so we have to start to really, it's like an onion, kind of pull this apart and begin to create safety in the body and start to change the belief systems about yourself and who you are so that you can change your operating system. And therefore be level up in ways you didn't even know that you could.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

Yeah.

Neutral Mind And Thought Awareness

SPEAKER_03 22:57

That reminds me of a book I read. It's called it's called It Takes What It Takes. Um I can't I'm drawing a blank on the author's name. But his a big part of that book is like a neutral mindset. Try not to get triggled. It's it's more based around like in your your everyday life, but just you know, stuck in traffic or somebody cuts you off or someone's rude to you at work or your partner says something that you take the wrong way, but all the types of things that can, if you're not careful, can like kind of get away from you or cause like a reaction. So his big thing is like if you're neutral, you're kind of aware. So it's a lot of awareness of your state of mind. And then when something like that happens, instead of that instant like reaction of like you know, mad or outburst or something that you might regret or will not help the situation, you address it from this like kind of neutral place where you're just like, okay. Like it's just very you don't you just don't react, or the reaction is calm and like you know, you either let it go or you say something in a very calm Demeanor or whatever and try to try to neutralize situations, and he's like, you'd be amazed if you try it, even just for like a day in your in your life and just like really be aware of situations and then don't react. And it's like it's so freeing, but we've just kind of been kind of programmed with these like kind of instant charged reactions that typically don't work well. Um I wonder how much that would help us. Um not so much what you're talking about with like the achieving part and like the higher stuff, but if you could if you could eliminate some of the like lower hanging things that we all deal with in some form kind of all the time or right consistently and like not let that get you going, yeah. That would give you more energy that you can then devote to like the higher, like yeah, the more challenging stuff.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah. Well and and I think and and there's benefit to that. So I I refer to that as becoming the little inner scientist of yourself, become the observer of your mind. Um and and that ability to observe what's happening to you instead of what's instead of reacting to what's happening to you. It it allows for a lot of reflection. Um and and it's important because when you do that, you can really start to to see where does my mind go when these things pop up. Um what what it but but with that, you also want to be able to think what am I thinking and feeling? Because our feelings give us data and they're either either coming from our thoughts, and our thoughts can be accurate or inaccurate, um, or our feelings could be coming because we're picking up on something in our environment that we need to pay attention to. And it's and it's good data, it's good information. Um and like if um a predator is coming up to a uh a mama bear, she's gonna get angry and let out a big roar. She needs to get mad, she needs to set that boundary, right? Like we we we need to um not do away with uh how we feel, but we but also recognize to your point that our mind creates unnecessary uh reactions and emotional responses depending on our frame of mind. You know, one of my other favorite quotes is by Aristotle, and I'll paraphrase it. Um, but essentially he says the mark of a wise mind or the mark of an educated mind is the ability to have a thought and not believe it.

SPEAKER_03 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Don't believe everything you think, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 26:40

It's kind of observing the thought and then yeah, dismissing it if it's not true or doesn't serve you. Um I do think, and then you're talking about like the kind of the evolutionary protection where obviously a long time ago you had to be more aware because the threats could be life threatening. But for the most part, that's obviously the situation still exists, but in and out of our everyday life, like for the most part, your your life is not being threatened. But I think sometimes we react as if it as if it were, right? Um so it's kind of understanding that most things, the rude customer or rude customer service or coworker or boss or whatever neighbor. It's like it's typically more indicative of what's going on in their life, and a lot of times has almost nothing to do with you. So it's like why why give it a charge reaction or why let it like bother you? Because it's almost always something that's bothering them that you just happen to be like you just crossed paths with it uh at the wrong time. So don't don't waste a lot of energy on like trying to diagnose it or figure it out and just keep on just keep going.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Therapy Trust And Finding Fit

SPEAKER_00 27:48

There's uh the a joke in uh therapy world that's uh the joke is that um, and this isn't actually true, but um that therapists don't get angry about anything because we understand that the nature of everybody's behavior is about themselves. So we don't get mad.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Uh who do therapists see? Do they see other therapists? I've always wondered that.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

I hope so.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

I always thought I've seen a lot of therapists in my life, and I'm always like, who did they talk to? Like, yeah. Do they go see a therapist sitting across from a therapist? And you're like, I kind of know I know what we're gonna do here, but we're gonna do it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah. Um I I mean, I I have a coach, I have a therapist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

My first uh this is related to nothing other than you might laugh. My first foray into therapy is my mom uh tricked me into going. I was 14.

SPEAKER_01 28:39

Oh, jeez.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

She was she was getting she'd been dating my parents divorced when I was really young. She'd been dating this guy for like seven or eight years, and then they were gonna get married, and so she thought that it would serve like me, I guess, to talk about the change because I was gonna have a stepdad and he was gonna move in with us. And so I couldn't drive, she I could stay home by myself, which I had done for years as like an only child, last key kid. But she like made me go to the doctor with she said you got a doctor's appointment. And I was like, all right. And she made me go, okay. And so I'm I sit in the waiting room, paying no attention whatsoever. She goes back, everything was normal to that point, and then she came back into the waiting room and was like, like, they're ready for you now. I was like, What are you what are you talking about? And she was like, Well, it was like an appointment for both of us, so like I went first and now you're up. And I'm I'm like so confused. Right. Eventually, I guess I ventu I did get up and I went and sat in this chair, and it was just this strange guy and me. And I just had no idea what was going on. This whole thing was like really foreign. And he like started talking and asking me a bunch of questions. I never said anything, I did I literally didn't speak. Um and after like 10 or 12 minutes, I he gave up, I think. And then I just I walked out, and she was like, How to go? And I was like, Let's go home. And then I got in the car and we drove home, and then I called my dad. I was like, Guess what, guess what, mom did? And then I just started like a whole like shit story. And so yeah, that was my first that was my first foray into seeing a therapist. That's how you're supposed to do it, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Right, right, right. You were like, I plead silence.

SPEAKER_03 30:17

Um anyway, so many, many years later, I well, we we eventually went to a family council of the three of us. So my my mom, soon-to-be stepdad, and myself went to it. That was all those were awful sessions, just completely terrible. Um their marriage lasted about five years. I don't think that was a surprise to anyone. Anyway, uh I digress, but uh many, many years later I finally like found therapy on my own and then took me a while to find someone I trusted and liked, and then yeah. Yeah, and then kind of went from there.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

But that's the key. It's you gotta like and trust the person that you're working with.

SPEAKER_03 30:52

Yeah. Um but I was I I if anybody's listening to this and they're not sure, I would I would be pretty quick to like try find someone else. Like I think you can tell for me, I can tell pretty quickly. Um I think I stayed with a few, like because you were like, Oh, I don't want to change, or we've had a couple sessions, I don't want to repeat all that again. But you won't get as nearly as much out of it if you're withholding, or you know you're just not that comfortable with them.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

So I would be like, try to find somebody that you really don't don't be afraid to make the switch.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Yeah, for sure.

When Success Stops Feeling Like Enough

SPEAKER_03 31:26

Um what so you talked about like success and a lot of the people we work with, again, like the high achiever, uh entrepreneur, business person, whatever they're doing, but there's usually a high level of success, and you mentioned it, like it never seems to be enough. So whether it's money or status or job title or whatever, like there's still there's always more. Like there's you're you typically never get somewhere and you're like, this is it. Like I've made the most money, I have the highest title. Like you can you can figure something else out. And I think a lot of us get stuck in the moving the goalposts, and like we do this, and then yeah, we have to do this, and then you can just literally do that forever. Um talk a little bit about that is like where success doesn't heal, but it really amplifies. And I'm sure it's related to the same patterns and problems that we already talked about.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

Yeah. Yeah. Our um our mind doesn't just change, our happiness level doesn't just change because we meet some sort of external reward. Um so yeah, success doesn't heal us, it amplifies what's ever in us. Whether and then if that's the good stuff, then it amplifies that. If it's issues that we already have, it amplifies that. Uh so success is an amplifier to what's going on inside. You know, we've we've heard of the saying more money, more plot more problems. Um, and this is another way of saying that as well. And, you know, and and success helps uh in in a lot of ways. And I, you know, and it does solve some issues uh momentarily. I have I don't know that I have seen when someone hasn't done the work needed, when there's there's an internal problem that they're they're caught in a pattern and they're headed towards burnout, or there's a self-worth issue, or there's an underlying sense of, I don't know, fear of rejection or fear of failure or whatever. That I've not ever seen that magically go away just because they got the corner office, or just because they got um, you know, their first million or whatever whatever it is. That's that's not how neuropathways work. Your neuropathways just don't start to rewire in your brain because this external things happen, because this is that's all an internal grain, an internal uh thing. And uh, you know, life, business, relationships, they are a mirror to what's going on inside of us. And it's the great teacher, right? Um and so I my my encouragement for people is um to do the work now so you can enjoy the ride. Like, yeah, do all the things, do the you know, have as many goals as you want to have. But but you know, and part of why I create the internal edge is I hate that so many people who want to do such good work in the world and have impact can't enjoy the journey like they should because they're they're feeling so much pressure or crumbling silently inside and and don't want to say anything because they're so good at going, right? Um and it just it doesn't have to be that way.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Yeah, I think the money one's tricky because that's kind of what so many of us were wired, like money equals success, right? And so the more money you have, the more successful you are. That's just kind of a common thing. And I don't know where I saw this a long time ago, but it was like if somebody's making, say, 30 or 40,000 a year, and then they get to a hundred thousand a year, their level of happiness goes way up. Like it's a huge jump, right? If they're making a hundred thousand a year and they start making a million a year, it's minimum, it's almost no change. Um, because once your basic needs, a little bit beyond like your basic needs, food, shelter, safety, once those are met, and then you have a little bit more on top to to do some like nicer things for you, then that it just completely plateaus. Yeah. And so now you could just take all the money and it's not like you already have everything that you need, and yeah, so you might have some nicer stuff, or you might take some more trips or whatever, but it it doesn't generate like any extra happiness. Like like you said, it feels good in the moment. Like you could buy an expensive car, so like that feels good, and that just wears off. Yeah, and so then we can buy another one, or you know what I mean? Like, so it's so we get I think we get caught up on we have to do more and more and more thinking that it's gonna fill, like that will now will feel better, and then it doesn't. And so yeah, it's great, you make it, so you have a little more money, and then that that feeling that's fleeting, that's gone. So then what? I mean, so yeah, so you're if you're not doing the work, if you're not enjoying the process, then it's like what's like what's the real point if we're just we're just trying to get to some goal.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah, the highest rates of depression for um a lot of celebrities, actors, is right after they get the Grammy.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Win the award, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

They win the award, and then the months following is usually when that happens.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Yeah, it's like the ultimate high in that in your chosen field, and then you get all the attention and then it's all gone.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

I saw, I think it was on Instagram, like Matthew Perry was like he was making a million dollars a year for friends, or a million dollars an episode for friends. I think he was dating Julia Roberts or someone similar. He had a he had a house overlooking on Malibu, like overlooking the ocean. Like he had all this like outward success, right? Like he had made it, he was famous, he had money, whatever. And he said that was like the most unhappy he had like ever been.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Post-Goal Crash And Identity

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Well, and and I'll I'll be a little vulnerable here because I was I was literally just uh the last few days reflecting on this, and I was like, man, why am I why have I been so kind of antsy lately? And I and I realized uh it's because I didn't have a thing I was working towards that was like a high stakes thing. You know, like I um, you know, I had my TEDx last October and I had been working towards, and I had this big, you know, um pitch competition that I had been working towards in Vancouver for so free. And like I had these other things in between. And and uh so there was this like and I was like, oh, it and I had to remind myself, like I'm I'm in a building phase right now. It's it's okay. Like I had I had to really talk myself myself through the awareness of that and recognize that I had I had gotten used to uh need not not consciously, but just like enjoying having some big thing to do and then feeling kind of almost like like I'm not doing anything important. I know rationally I am, but there's just this feeling. So I had a had to have a little talk with myself about that.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

I'll maybe do the Mandy talk. Um, no, I feel that I'd I used to do a lot of uh triathlons. I got really into triathlons for about five years, and uh uh ended up doing like a half Iron Man, the full was too much time, but I thought the half was doable, and so I hired a coach and he had like a group, so I was part of the group and went through it. I spent like a year, a little over a year, like getting ready for it. I did it in May of 19 down in Tennessee, and it was fine. It was really hot that day, but like I made it. And the week after that, I might be the most depressed that I've ever been because I'd have like I didn't have anything else. I didn't have a train, I didn't have to train. I was taking a week off to just recover. So I had no training plan to follow, I had no workouts, the race was over, and I was just like, What what do I what do I do now? Like I spent like a year plus, like almost you know, not every day, but most days I was swimming, biking, or running, or going to classes and doing strength workouts, and uh it was on the calendar and it became a part of your identity. Yeah, exactly. And then it was like what what now? It was terrible. And I remember I think I texted him like Wednesday of that week, and I was like, I feel terri I feel awful. Like, is this normal? He was like, Yeah, I probably should have like I probably should have warned you, I probably should have warned you since that was like the first one. Like you're gonna you're gonna experience a dip. Like it will go away, but like right after you you come off this high, and then kind of similar to what you're talking about, like winning the award, and then it's all kind of over and gone. Yeah, yeah. So you do have to kind of be aware of like when you're like you said, building and working phase, then you have the goal phase, and then you accomplish the goal, and then there's probably gonna be like I assume after the TEDx there was probably some type of dip, because there was I'm sure there was a ton of work in prep and then actually doing it, and then like now you don't have you're not you're not continuing to do in prep, and then you're like, oh, okay, that's over.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Yeah, yeah. There was there was somewhat for sure. I think one of the things that helped me with that, um because it wasn't as bad of a dip with that, is I remember um when I got you know, I when I got got to the stage and it it was you know, I've listened to Ted and Ted X talks, you know, all my life, and so it was a personal sort of bucketless item for me. And so I was really excited about it, and I and I told myself too that this is just another stage. This is for this is you know, um this is for whatever person in the room, you know, and I think in at least for and I'm not always I don't always do a great job at this, but that time I was able to really I think separate out putting this thing on this pedestal and and my identity from that being separate, um, which which helped with that um to a degree. And and I wrote about this in um Entrepreneur not too long ago, talking about um, especially with you know, AI, you know, people worrying about AI taking over a lot of jobs and what that's doing psychologically to people and their identity with their work and what they do, um, that we have to be mindful that we are not placing so much of our value and worth of ourself in what we do. It is a part of who we are. It's not all of who we are. And um, and there's been so many times where you know I've you know, I've felt this sort of like existential crisis because I'm you know not doing the thing that feels like my identity. And um to your point, like not like when you're you weren't running and training anymore, or um, you know, it's like who am I now that I've gotten this Grammy? I've already met that goal now. What yeah, and so but it it very much uh it is an identity. There's a big part of it that's an identity part of it. And then there's also I think a physiological part that we don't have all that, those uh feel-good chemicals going through our body anymore as well.

SPEAKER_03 43:35

So yeah, no, that's for sure true. And I think part of it is like what especially with a job, is that the time allotted is so out of proportion because like if you're doing a 40 hour a week on site, you know, in office type work, it's really probably fifty or sixty hours of your week when you factor in getting ready and commute and whatnot. And then like that's most of your day, and so you get home, it's five or six o'clock, and now you just have a few hours, whatever, three to five hours before you go to bed to do like life stuff, right? So it's it's totally out of out of whack. And then the weekends you try to spend catching up, which that's mostly just trying to recover from being so busy. And then you're doing like house stuff and chores and errands and then you're right back in it. So I think it's hard to not wrap your identity into your work simply because it takes up so much of your time and you have so little time for like fun stuff and friends and family and relationships.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

That it's easy to to get caught in the like well I'm an accountant, I'm a lawyer, I'm a whatever because I spend literally sixty to seventy hours of my week doing some version of that.

SPEAKER_00 44:46

Yeah, for sure. Well and I and I think that's a good reflection question of if this was all stripped away from me.

Hobbies, Music, And Being Bad

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Who who am I?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah what or who would I want to be you know what um you know and and having meaningful time to explore that and you know I think one of the greatest gifts I've done for myself over the last year is get back to music like playing again. Like guitar and and I randomly like last uh last Thanksgiving um I decided I was gonna teach myself the harmonica and I'm still not great at it at all. It's much harder than it looks um but but it's you know having and it's just I just I just like it like for me, you know, I don't play in front of people or anything like that. Like that kind of terrifying me. But like I enjoy it. Um and and and other things like that that are back to who I was well before I even had my career.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

And um that's been so good. So so good.

SPEAKER_03 46:10

Well I think it's good to have we just added like an hour to the podcast because I could just talk music forever. Um I think it's good to have some outlet like that writing poetry art music sports doesn't it really doesn't matter but something that is not directly retired directly tied to like making money or working. Yeah that is some that is an outlet um and I think it's even it is a little bit harder it's easier as a kid because you have more time it can become very challenging as an adult and your time gets stretched um and it's easy to kick those to the side or I'll do those when I have time which you'll fill all the time and you'll have never have time for them. I think it's really important to prioritize whatever whatever it is um because it's just so beneficial um just to get away from doing it and you I know music specifically like use different parts of your brain when you're trying to create music or play music that you don't really use any other time and like it's very cathartic. So I think it's really I think it's very important.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yeah yeah yeah getting getting back to yourself um whatever that looks like whatever and and yeah and not having time will always be an excuse that will be the number one excuse excuse and um and you are your number one priority you have to be or it you know if you don't stop your body's gonna make you stop and that's a harsh reality of the way the mind and body works and so um you know show me your time and your money and who and your habits and I'll show you your future right that's how it goes no I I hear you there.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

My my both of my parents are musically inclined and they can both sing. My mom played the organ and the piano my dad can play the guitar and I didn't get any of it it totally skipped me like I can't I have no voice um I have a radio voice I can talk but I I can't hit like any note like at all. My dad bought me a guitar because I asked him to I was like 23 I said if you buy me a cheap guitar I'll teach myself how to play it so he did and this is before like YouTube and you know Tab um and I I kind of did but not ever really um and I think for me the problem with music is I can't get good enough quick enough and so I don't want to go through the patience of it. Yeah like where you're just not really it feels like you're making no progress and it's like I just want to play stuff that's familiar and I can't really do that like well. And so I just I've tried to get back in I have he eventually gave me like I have a nice guitar in my office because he got a different one. So I have a very nice it's Takamini Acoustic electric way too nice for me. And I've gotten like I'll go through spurts I'm like all right like I'm really committed it lasts like two or three days and then I'm like nope I still suck.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

And then I quit also that's the negative voice that is directing your fate around guitar.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Yeah like I just want it to sound I just want it to sound decent not even good but I just wanted I'll play something for like my wife or like one of my kids and they're like I have no idea what that is like god damn it and then I just like whatever it's done. Like you should know you should know the song it's like super famous and they're like well yeah if if someone was good at the playing the guitar they would play it the right way I'd recognize it but you're like hitting like every fourth note so I can't so your automatic negative thoughts coupled with unreasonably high expectations of self are creating the self-sabotage that or you could see it as a win maybe start a little smaller I'll see like I'll see the uh because now there's you know all these like online endless right online tutorials suit easy system go from beginner to intermediate it's like all you know this very compressed time frame and I see all that stuff and I'm like nah I don't think so maybe one day I don't the drums my next music thing is I I would I think I would I think I'd be better with the drums. Like I'm pretty coordinated and I can hear I can hear music. I can't read it but like I can hear it. Try and so I'm like I need to take like some drum lesson. Plus I think it'd be very like therapeutic just like pound on the drums.

SPEAKER_00 50:50

Oh yeah for sure. All that kinetic energy yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

Um I remember Taylor Hawkins the uh now deceased uh Foo Fighters drummer he was talking about like he was a kid like trying to figure out what he was good at and he tried sports wasn't it he tried other instruments didn't really work and then he talks about like I don't know what the situation was but like he ended up behind a drum kit and the instructor like told him gave him some like musical like like a 4-4 like some I don't know music like that but he's like just do this and he like in he could just do it. And he was like that's like I just I knew right then like I had found it like I like I just had I had it and then you know he kept playing and there you go. So I think that's the other thing too if you are struggling to try to figure it out it's like what like what kind of clicks or what connects or like what do you have kind of some basic baseline natural ability to do um it'll just happen. It'll happen a lot quicker. Mm-hmm It's not prerequisite but it'll speed it it'll speed it up.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Mm-hmm. And don't let the negative voice of the things that you aren't good at become a blanket black or white statement that now I'm not good at anything.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Yeah no for sure I mean I think most people are probably have more talent and are better at more things than they realize but a lot of them they either have never tried or they tried and gave up like pretty quickly be my guess. You can limit you can kind of limit yourself or you can pigeonhole yourself like well I can only do this. It's probably not true.

SPEAKER_00 52:28

Yeah um I think being okay with being bad at something is an important thing. If um it was I knew I um I really wanted to try martial arts um a long time ago and I knew I needed to make friends as an adult because I was going through a divorce and I was moving and all this stuff and um I was always into sports but I there was no women's basketball league anywhere nearby and um so I again had to have a conversation with myself Mandy you have to be okay with being bad at this and I was for like a year until I was okay at it um but it a lot of its mindset.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Yeah which which one did you choose? When I was growing up it was karate only now there's like 15.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

It's called hap keto got it okay I've heard of I've heard of a keto is it related yeah yeah um not the same similar but art of coordinated power so there's a lot of uh joint manipulation a lot of using it's it's like technically it's like made for smaller people to take down larger people using like people's like uh momentum against them things like that sounds like jujitsu mm-hmm um yeah the one of my kids I w he was being bullied at the time and I wanted to take something and we settled on jujitsu because he was small and then I didn't really want to do something like striking like punching and so he did it for a couple months he didn't like it at all I was way more into it than he was and then the instructor offered like a free like adult like a 20 minutes with him like the main guy.

SPEAKER_03 54:10

So I was like yeah sure and that was maybe the most uncomfortable 20 minutes I've spent in a long time like just one on one with the Matt with this guy and he had the strongest hands of anyone that I've ever met like his hands if they I don't know if you can measure hand strength I would put that guy in like the top five like in the world like I've never he gripped me and I was like he was not a big guy but like he just had these hands like he was incredible. Um and he like just was manipulating me and moving me around and I was like this is I'm glad we had this test. This is a a hundred percent this is a hundred percent no so thanks thanks for uh throwing me around like a ragdoll for 20 minutes I will see myself out um but but yeah no I mean it's that yeah that's good too like it's just builds confidence in case you get in a bad situation and then that's just like good information to know. Did you did you meet did you meet anyone? Did you make friends in doing it? Yeah yeah I made some friends did it work nice I did it it is hard as an adult um like I have a very small social circle like basically my two friends are from high school and I never look to expand it my wife is like you need like more adult friends and I'm like I don't I don't think I do I think I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

Two is fine. She's like two is not fine.

SPEAKER_03 55:27

You're the expert on you David sometimes I'm not sure that's true. Uh yeah um well this is great this is like the quickest hour of the podcast I've done right in in a long

A Two-Minute Reset Tool

SPEAKER_03 55:41

time. What as we wrap it up what if someone's out there they listen to it they they feel like okay I could use some help or my nervous system is a mess or I'm kind of all over the place like what's like something they could either try or like have in their back of their head to think about when situations arise or some kind of direction they could head?

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah well uh my brother and I created an app and it's a nervous system reset app. So we have a patent pending on the technology and it uses a technique called bilateral stimulation which means left and right side of your body through audio tones, uh visuals and uh vibrations from phone to watch. And it gets your uh nervous system out of a stress response in under two minutes. It's free. Um it's right now it's for iOS only so it's only for iPhone users coming soon to Android um but you can find it on the App Store. And um we've done about 2,000 sessions in the past uh year now and because it integrates with your biometrics to the Apple Health kit we can now prove a 45% reduction in stress in under two minutes.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

So um that's free for anybody who you know use it between calls, use it before you go to bed, use it when you wake up whenever you can be as discreet as you want to be with it. You know, and the other the other part is um I mean just create start creating some awareness with yourself if any of this has resonated with you that yeah I'm wired and tired all the time I can't seem to to I meet my goals but yet it still doesn't feel like enough or you know there's just this internal pressure that doesn't seem to go away and you're not enjoying the ride as much as you want to um then yeah it's time to do something about it. You know I have my internal edge group specifically designed for that for people. Just tell somebody anybody you know there's all sorts of resources out there. I've got a bunch on my my website as well so uh mandyemorse.com.

SPEAKER_03 57:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

Yeah I'll link uh I'll link the notes um I'll link the put the links in the show notes is that is that the is LinkedIn the best way to find you or your website like if someone wants to reach out what is the best way to find you uh LinkedIn if you want to message me personally uh but if you want to go to my website to find out more information find out more about the internal edge um and and the app you can go to my website awesome well many this is super uh informative uh really enjoy uh the conversation thanks for coming on thank you