The Underlayer: Fear, Clarity & Personal Growth for Mid-Life Professionals

EP 5: Lisa De Nicola on The Hidden Patterns Linking Love, Work, And Self

• David Young | Lisa De Nicola • Episode 5

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Episode — The Real Story Beneath Your Relationships

with Lisa De Nicola

What if the relationships you’re struggling with aren’t the problem, but the old patterns running beneath them?


In this episode of The Underlayer, leadership and executive coach Lisa De Nicola takes us below the surface to uncover how childhood strategies shape the way we speak up at work, choose partners, maintain friendships, and set boundaries, and how rewriting those strategies starts with small, honest shifts.

What begins as a conversation about relationships becomes a blueprint for reclaiming your voice, your energy, and the parts of yourself you’ve hidden to stay safe.


You’ll hear:

• The moment two mentors reflected a buried childhood wound back to Lisa, and how that realization reshaped every relationship in her life

• How trauma-informed therapy and spiritual guidance accelerated her healing and restored emotional expression as a leadership superpower

• Why “success” in relationships has nothing to do with years together, and everything to do with authenticity, growth, and energy

• How curiosity can resuscitate long-term relationships that have fallen into assumptions and stale stories

• Practical tools to navigate conflict in real time: ask for the hour you need to regulate, name your emotions clearly, and stop expecting people to read your mind

• How small, honest steps prevent the quiet resentments that erode teams, partnerships, and friendships alike


By the end, you’ll understand why healing happens both alone and in partnership, why your patterns are not your identity, and how changing tiny relational habits can transform your confidence at work and at home.


🎧 The Underlayer — Where the Real Story Lives.


If this resonated, subscribe, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more people start their own underlayer work.


Lisa's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisadenicola25/

Lisa's Website: https://lisadenicola.com/




The Underlayer YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/@the_under_layer

The Underlayer Podcast Website: https://www.theunderlayerpodcast.com/

David's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-young-mba-indy/

SPEAKER_00:

Welcome to episode five of the underlayer, where the real story lives, the surface story dies, and the truth underneath comes to life. I'm your host, David Young, and every week on this show we peel back the layers, break old narratives, and move into the underlayer, the place where clarity lives, alignment takes shape, and your energy finally starts to come back. You want to make changes in your life, you have to go beneath your own story. Today I'm joined by Lisa Danicola, and we're going to take a deep dive into relationships. Lisa is a leadership and executive coach and the founder of Her Lead and Rise, empowering mid to executive level leaders to elevate their emotional and relational intelligence. She helps leaders stay true to themselves while awakening them to their full potential. Lisa, it's great to see you again. Thanks for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_03:

So good to see you. You really do have that broadcaster voice. Like now that I'm seeing it in action, I remember in your post, and I'm like, yeah, you do. You sound like a radio host.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you're welcome. I had a coworker a long time ago. She she always used to say to me, like, you should be in radio. You have a voice for radio. Like I don't know. She's like, every time I hear you talk, I'm like, I should be listening to that on a radio station. This is kind of before like streaming and podcasting was around, but it's not like what it was now. So still like DJs and like that was a little bit more popular.

SPEAKER_04:

So that's no, you absolutely there's like a frequency about it that hits like a note and like brings you in. That's that's what I feel.

SPEAKER_00:

Thanks. So yeah, it's great to have you on. I uh we've known each other for a little bit uh through LinkedIn. We met in person uh this past summer when I was in Toronto, which was great. Um you write really, really for me, insightful LinkedIn posts. Um and it's typically around relationships, leadership. What I really find interesting is that it's usually there's you really dive into like the correlation and how all of our relationships are intertwined and it's not separated, like you have a work relationship, you have friend relationships, you have you know partner type relationships, like it's all related. Um, and we don't necessarily always think about that. So, like kind of how we are at home is how we are at work, which is how we are at home, and then the cycle kind of perpetuates. Um, so I think I want to start there. Just how how did you become, I think of you as like a relationship expert. I don't know if you think of yourself that way, but that's how I think of you. Like, how do you feel like that kind of transpired and came to be?

SPEAKER_04:

You know, it's um a new part of my work that I've been slowly introducing over the last, I'd probably say six months or so, and that's in big part of my own experience. Um, and because we've been following each other for a little while, I'm sure you've caught on that I've been much more vocal and vulnerable and sharing some of those personal experiences. And I've I've literally amassed um quite a bit of experience over many years, you know, have a lot to offer in terms of supporting other women, some men for sure, but women most often are the ones that are drawn to me uh in that sphere. And so what I've um been doing in just my own evolution and learning is as I've been on this journey of understanding my relational patterns and how they've shown up in not only my romantic relationships, but also taking notice of how they were showing up in like friendships, um, client dynamics when I was in corporate. And then even in the last like five years when I went on my own, and most definitely in like the family dynamic, uh, I have been trying to connect the dots to how it shows up in business, whether you are an entrepreneur and a lot of my audience is in corporate, um, because I didn't have that understanding before. And I think a lot of uh people, when they make that connection, if they can see how, you know, shrinking in meetings is not just an isolated event and is not because you're nervous because of, you know, your boss being in the room or uh, I don't know, even a client that you're trying to impress. But this stems from, you know, before like childhood, even. Um, and it's likely also showing up in your other relationships. And so that's for me is always a really interesting connection and probably important one that I would say because we always want to look at things holistically. We don't want to look at things from an individual or you know, linear standpoint. Um, I really want to invite people to look at how it shows up in all dynamics so that when you go to the source of the wound, whatever it might be, and you can heal that and then break the pattern. So if the pattern in meetings is to stay silent, when you start creating that safety within yourself, and now you can show up in a more confident and grounded way, you'll break it in all the other dynamics as well. And it takes practice, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's a good point uh in talking about the evolution. When so at what point do you think you said it's a relatively new thing? Did you start? Were you journaling? Were you writing it down? Was there was there a moment with the cause you to look back and start to see the patterns? Like was kind of what made you start to do this like reflection and kind of come like into this like next phase where you're at now?

SPEAKER_04:

So um, and this is what I shared in actually the the the other podcast that I um I just shared. So two years ago, like my my world imploded, and I went through probably one of the most devastating and traumatic times in my life, my adult life that I can remember, both personally and professionally. And I've always been very dedicated to my personal, my spiritual and my professional development. But I I had never gone as deep as I had gone two years ago. And and it's continuing, right? It's I've gone a lot further ahead. I'm a lot further ahead than I was before. But this is a journey for a reason. And and you know, we don't do, you know, some work for a period of time and then stop. It's always like a lifelong journey uh if you commit to it that way. So in that period two years ago, when I, you know, when everything was was kind of falling apart and I was in this crisis, um, you know, I really was forced to look at, because I was willing to look, um, at what had really been the pattern that I just wasn't seeing. And there's usually more than one. So um, so in that time when I was basically like trying to survive, you know, um I had gone to therapy, I was doing like energy and and spiritual work with trusted like mentors and and guides and so on. And it was with their support and then a lot of my own self-study that I traced it back to some childhood um experiences that I'd gone through and not really understanding that that was um a wound that unfortunately really shaped and influenced the choices that I was making in my romantic partnerships, my friendships, even. My friendships, even, um, the family dynamic, there that's always there. Um, and then also just witnessing it and understanding how it was showing up in my corporate career, because I was in corporate for about 15 years, and then even in the last five, my entrepreneurial journey, um, how that was coming up in the form of like clients that I was attracting, um, weird like uh issues that I didn't quite always understand how to handle. But I was when I sort of looked underneath the hood, I'll say, is I was recognizing, oh, like this is very similar to men that I would date. And this is also very similar to um, you know, how some of my friendships would look like, right? Either imbalanced or emotional unavailability, um, siphoning my energy um and and really like depleting me in a lot of different ways. So it wasn't in the form of just a reflective moment. It really was the catalyst of just the terrible time that I'd gone through. And um, it really inspired me to look at these different areas and finally break some patterns that were just um torture in some cases. Like just I couldn't figure out how to get out of it and break it until I started doing some of this deeper work.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's really interesting. And it's uh it's so often the case, right? It's stuff from our past that we don't realize. I know I've I've done a lot of reading with kind of between up to like age eight or nine, so much of that happens, which you have almost no control over. Uh and you don't even a lot of times even have like a lot of even memories of it. But your environment, what you're what you see, what what you witness in relationships, um, whether it's parents or divorce or aunts, uncles, whatever, you see a lot of that stuff, you're exposed to a lot of that, which again at the time you're not paying much attention to because you're a kid and you're just doing what kids do. But it's really it's just so fascinating that that gets almost imprinted like into your DNA, into your psyche, subconscious, whatever, all these years later, right? There's like this big jump into like a early adulthood, and you start having different life experiences, but you're making a lot of these choices, you're you're doing these things that you don't understand, all from stuff that you saw that you don't even remember. Like it's really it's really fascinating. And I I've gotten into it a little bit and I probably need to go deeper. Um at what point was it was it through the therapy sessions or just through the whole situation that you started to see kind of those childhood whatever went there and then how that was showing up? Like how did how did you get to that point? Or how did you yeah?

SPEAKER_04:

So I actually there's two women that I met um around the same time, so let's say five years ago, uh, as part of um uh a group, a Facebook group actually. And um I had worked with them separately and still do to this day. I actually wrapped up a program with um one of my I consider them both mentors, and at this point, they're also friends, friends, friendships that I've been able to develop. And um they both separately at the time had um just intuitively picked up on an experience that I had. I'm not gonna share it here because it's quite heavy, um, and I didn't forewarn you. So I don't want to shock the shit out of you. Just listen to the other podcasts and you'll understand. Um but like for something that I hadn't even shared and I had really never really uh talked about or processed in a safe um manner, uh, they were both able to see it. And when they brought it up to me, uh I was like, do you think that this I remember to one of them, I was like, Do you think that this experience impacted all of these relationships? And she like like literally leaned in and she's like a hundred percent. And I was like, and I was like, and then I got mad because I was like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00:

I was like, I've been why didn't you see it?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, but also I had been working with so many different people, and both of them too, and over the years, and I was like, no one brought this up, you know, no one and mind you, I didn't share it. So you could say, well, you didn't say anything, but some of these people could you can like when you have the ability to intuit into an energy and you have the ability to see the unseen, I'm I'm expecting you to tell me what I'm not seeing. It doesn't always work like that. But nonetheless, I digress. So that was actually the moment that I you can say I it was like a bit of a revelation. And then and then I was like, okay, uh it wasn't even honestly, David, it wasn't even a second thought. Because the moment that they brought it up, I was like, okay, this is actually the missing puzzle piece. This is yeah, this is the stone that I have not turned. Uh, this is where I have to dive deep, no matter how uncomfortable, no matter how painful, no matter, no matter, no matter what. I just had to do it. And so I did. And I started therapy and I needed to find a specific therapist who was trauma trained, trauma-informed, had a variety of modalities because I'm not interested in just the cognitive behavior. I need some that can go deep. Um, fortunately, I have and I've been continuing to work with her for the last two plus years. And I mean, it's complex because there's moving pieces when you start to break things down. But honestly, if it wasn't for both of those women separately, bringing it to my attention, I don't know when I would have actually recognized that that had been a very, very influential and impactful part of my life, my childhood experience that absolutely influenced the woman that I am today, the you know, the relationships that I chose and having I've um entered and certainly, you know, the leader that I am today too.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, it's honestly it's uh it's possible you never would have, frankly. Um because it takes a special set of circumstances and people to do it. And if you don't find them, it's unlikely you were gonna get there.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like on your own. Um so Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And it's funny you say that too, because you know, when I got mad and I was like, you know, really just kind of not letting it out on my mentors, but I was just like WTF, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

What the fuck, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And um she's like, but honey, you don't understand. Like there's a time when also your soul becomes ready to face certain parts. And I think that, you know, as as modest as it sounds and like spiritual and all, it is there is relevance there, there's validity there, right? And it's like, okay, so maybe 10 years ago in my early 30s, I wouldn't have been ready. And maybe it took, you know, the tenth relationship that just broke me to finally say it's time to surrender and you really need to face, face the music. Because this is something that you're not dealing with. Not because I didn't want to, I just didn't know. I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's true. I mean, sometimes, like you said, it does have if it happens like enough, like over and over and over, then you'll you'd at some point you'll be like, okay, like this this just keeps happening if it's similar enough. Sometimes it's not similar enough, and so we don't connect it quite as easily. If it's very similar, like whether it's a time frame, like it always happens around a certain time, or it's always whatever, it can become a little bit clearer, and so we can start to do it, but I don't know. I mean, you know, our lives are very busy, we're we're inundated with a lot of stuff.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Don't always take the time to like really reflect and think more deeply what you're talking about, like really introspective, like, all right, like what is really happening here, what's really going on beneath the surface, right? Not just up here, like really getting down into it. And it's it's not easy, like you said, like it's painful, it's hard, uh, it's not fun. Um, and then usually it has to get worse before it gets better. And then that's like you're just like, I don't, you know, it's it's always easier to just be like, I won't deal with it, like whatever.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, and sadly, that often is the choice that a lot of people make, right? And I'll say this for both men and women. So unfortunately, men have the stereotype that they don't have the emotional depth and maturity to take the time to process an ending of a relationship before they're on to the next. Women, they fall into that camp too, some of them, but more times than not, they will take the time. Um, you know, in my case, I was doing that. I just wasn't looking at the right things to heal. So while I may have been working on some things, I wasn't working on the right things. And, you know, unfortunately, the pattern continued, different patterns were continuing. And um, you know, and and actually the last I'd say two to five years is where my experiences became amplified, like worse in different ways. And I was like, okay, now I'm done. Like I'm just like, I I don't even have the the energy, like the the the energy to keep, you know, entering into something new again and and risk this kind of uh like ending, right? And this kind of treatment that I was getting. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, you know, we talked when you and I talked um about a month ago in kind of preparation for this, one of the things you said that really struck me was like the most important relationship you'll ever have is the one you have with yourself. And that really that really struck me. And you talked about like the the evolution, like it there's no end. Um there is no you don't do all the work, whether it's therapy or energy or whatever healing modality, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Like you you don't graduate. It doesn't stop. Like because as we gain more experiences and we get older and we mature, and relationships come and go, and jobs come and go, and all these things, there's it's constantly shifting. There's always new information, there's always new experiences that we then have to evaluate. So there is no like I'm all set, all healed, no, we're all good, like we're just gonna ride, we're just gonna coast this out. If you're into it, it's it's a lifelong journey until we die, right? There's just always more to dig into, to uncover, to figure out. And the I think the earlier we do it, the better, because then we start to make better informed decisions, and then we don't cause ourselves so much discomfort along the way. On the flip side, when we do, we learn a lot more because obviously we always learn more from pain, discomfort, mistakes, failing than we ever do from success.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I mean, I think you said it perfectly. There's no like point of arrival, right? And in a lot of cases, you know, there's a season and a time where you do do the work on your own. Like there's there's not not every part of a healing journey requires someone to be in there with you. There's some things that you have to walk alone, and you shouldn't want someone else involved in that because it's just so sacred and private. And then when it comes to growing and expanding and healing, there's that period where you do that in relationships with others. And it doesn't necessarily mean that it's always going to be in a romantic um dynamic because, as we know, we learn through our friendships as well and in client relationships. And, you know, when you're working for someone else, you have your peers, your colleagues, your teams, your leader, everyone is going to contribute in some capacity to your evolution and hopefully your healing. And um, and so both are can be true, right? You do some work on yourself. Where you're spending time being introspective and reflective on understanding what is your role, right, in that dynamic. And then it comes to a point where it's like, okay, now I actually need to apply what I've learned in a romantic situation. That we'll just use that as an example, and learn to heal in relationship. So this is where all the fears come up, all the triggers happen, all of the things that just because you think you worked through doesn't mean that they're completely gone. In some cases, they'll show up just to see, okay, how much have you grown? And this is where you're able to exactly and this is where you're able to break a pattern. So let's say, for example, you are used to dealing with conflict by walking away. You just shut it down. You emotionally shut down, you don't have the maturity, the capacity to ground yourself because you might be dysregulated. In most cases, you are. You're grounded now and you're now gonna respond. And so you might say, which is completely different than how you might have responded in the past, you might say, you know what? I need a moment to myself. I love you, I care about you, whatever you're gonna say, right? I'm gonna be back. I need at least an hour.

SPEAKER_00:

But you need to regroup, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That's right. But that can you you sort of um reaffirm and um reassure that connection so that you don't leave someone dangling. Your partner's like, what the hell? Like, what's going on, right? So and that happened that can only happen in that dynamic because you need someone to trigger that in you, right?

SPEAKER_00:

What do you think? Um, because you you talk uh you've talked about this recently in the in your content, with the like the romantic person more personal relationships and then that through line through friendships and like work uh relationships with coworkers and and management. Uh have you found anything specific that really that really draws and connects those, or is it more just like the holistic overview? Are you referring to like experiences that yeah, just like what like what you're taking, like what what you take, not necessarily you personally, but like you in general, but like the way you're showing up with your with your partner, and then how you're then how that you're then showing up with friends and coworkers. Is there anything specific that you've seen repeat or whatever that can cause either like amplified good, like you're doing this at home, so that's helping you outside, or you're doing this at home, and that's actually hurting your friendships and your co-working relationships.

SPEAKER_04:

So I'll even just share what happens in some of my client um dynamics, right? So we'll we'll be working on emotional intelligence, which is a bigger umbrella, but more specifically it'll be emotional expression. And so this is your ability to be able to emote and express yourself, your thoughts, your ideas, your feelings in a way that doesn't hurt the other person. And so it's unharmful, right? And where a leader is practicing that, I've been able to witness where now they're more expressive with their team. So it might be through in their one-to-ones, those dynamics are shifting. They're asking better questions, they're also expressing a concern, an objection, an idea in a way that lands, right? Because they're not, they're not unclear, they're, you know, they've prepared and um they're trying to basically build that relationship in the way that allows them to be able to express and communicate more effectively. And so when that is improving, then I've also heard in that same client where their partner is noticing a difference and a shift. Uh so this is obviously the positive. Right. So now their partner is like, wow, honey, like it's so great to hear, you know, you tell me how you really feel. Um, and I'm always encouraging that let's not just focus or assume that your team or at work is the only opportunity to practice. You have a whole other life. So practice with your friends, practice with your family. And I have to ask the question to get them to reflect on where else is this showing up in your life? Because a lot of the times I think it's just at work. And it's like, it's actually not. This is likely showing up in other areas. So let's co-create the awareness so we can pay attention to where else we need to maybe put this into practice and see how it feels, right? Um, so that's the best of the examples. Um on the flip side of that, and when it's like not so great, uh, you can use the same thing. They're not emotionally expressive, you know, with their teams. And so it almost uh disrupts and breaks trust because when you're not letting people in on how you're feeling, and at work in a leadership dynamic, sometimes there's always timing at play. You have to discern like when's the right time to tell my team that we have to shut this project down, for example, right? That that's fair. But you can always still let people in on how you're feeling. And doing so in a way that is respectful, that's grounded, that's clear, and you're using vocabulary and language that they understand. So you're attaching emotion to it, like I feel concerned or I'm a little bit overwhelmed here. Um, you know, and that that helps to actually strengthen the relationship and also it inspires people to now want to share with you, right? So if that's not happening, then that's likely not happening at home either. There's really a disconnect in emotional expression and your breaking connection, you're not actually feeding or fueling it because people don't know how you feel, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I think sometimes, um especially in like longer-term relationships. So if you've worked like with the same people for a while, or you've led this, you've had the same employees for a while, or if you're in a longer-term relationship, um, I think we can get to a place where we just feel like we think people can read our minds. And so we're having all these thoughts, conflict, uh, doubt, not sure, whatever. Um, but we don't express it because we're like, well, they know. They don't.

SPEAKER_01:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

They're not mind readers, no matter how much time they spend with you or how many one-on-ones you've had, or whatever. It doesn't matter. They're not they don't have ESP, like they're not telepathic. Like, tell them, like, I'm really struggling with this, or I'm unsure about this, right? And that's what you're talking about. Like, you're really building trust by they're not gonna look at you as a like that's weak. They're gonna be like, oh, okay, well, thanks for thanks for letting me know, and then like let's try to figure it out, or we can work on it together, or whatever. But a lot of times I think we just are like we get kind of tunnel vision and we're like, well, uh, I don't know. I just you just you just go like heads down and you don't you don't tell any anyone anything, and then they're like, I have no idea what's going on.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. And actually, I think it's such a fair point that you mentioned too. And um, I'm I wish I could remember who said it and where I heard it from. But to your point around, you know, when you're in relationships for a long time, you you can get a bit complacent, right? And comfortable and you just expect, well, after all these years, you should know. But I can't remember who said it, but they always they they said something along the lines that if you can you can if you can enter into your interactions and in the the dynamic with that person that you've been in a relationship with the longest, with a sense of curiosity. So kind of asking yourself the question if I didn't know what I thought I knew about this person, what would I learn? Right? Like it's such a great question because you go in with hopefully a more open mind and you can just ask. You can just ask, right? Like it might be as simple as you notice the body language, you notice a certain look, you know, like I'm sure you know there's a look that your partner has, and you're like, Oh, I know, I know that look, she's pissed. Or or the opposite, like, I know that look, she's like over the moon right now, right? But instead of not saying it or assuming that you might just ask, like, hey, you know, I'm curious, like I see a lot of expression on your face, or I'm you know, whatever the observation is, and just ask. And I mean, is it is it something that you remember all the time? Who knows? But if you can just lead with that curiosity, even in those dynamics where you know you've known someone for gosh, 10, 15, 20 plus years, who knows? What are the possibilities of that connection and how can things like shift, right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because like we talked earlier, right? It's it's always changing. So just because you've known someone for a long time, there's always different dynamics in play. That reminds me, one of the things we talked about was not judging the success of a relationship based on its duration.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And that really struck me too, because especially like growing up, you know, you would hear somebody like, oh, we've been married for 30 years or 40 years. And so I was just like, Oh, what a that's great. Like they must be so happy, right? They've been together for so long. And then you find out like secretly they've been miserable and living apart for 20 years. Um, and you're like, Oh, they're just yeah, okay, so you're just married. Oh, yeah, okay. Um, so so that I think is really interesting because I and that that was a long time ago, that example, but still, like I think when you hear someone's been together, or even if you've worked, some people are I've worked at the same place for whatever a long time. You're like, oh, well, your career must be going great, and you're like, you've been miserable for 10 years, you just haven't left. So it's I think we should I think that's a good idea. Like, we should stop equating length with happiness and success. That might be the case, but getting back to your curiosity point, maybe we should ask, like, okay, you've been together, you've been with that person for a long time, but like, how do you feel? Like, what are you actually getting out of it? Like, has it run its course and you just haven't left, or it's still great, or everything in between?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I mean, we've been conditioned to believe because you have to go back to like history, right? And and traditionally speaking, relationships were about security and stability. And a lot of the times women were seen as the homemakers and really quite frankly, dependent and reliant on the man to provide. And that is what I believe we're gonna see shift quite a bit as we move, continue moving into this like new world that we're all gonna be seeing and living in over the years. And so we've tied success to wow, 51 years. But if we're solely basing it on longevity, I mean, really, it's not a fair assessment because we don't know the dynamics of that. We don't know how much they've grown, we don't know, you know, authenticity, like how much have they been able to actually be true to who them, who they've who they are independently, individually, to really create that that sense of fulfillment and safety in the relationship. Um, so I think there's a real opportunity to redefine relationships and really looking at different elements. So, like the authenticity. So a lot of the times I think you you might have heard this too, is how many times people have after the relationship has ended, have said, you know, I never really felt like I could be myself in that relationship. And so that that's a metric of success. Maybe we need to be looking at how much did you grow, right? Was it always just kind of the same old, same old? Or did you have a partner that you guys could grow together as a union and then also individually were you supported in your own journey, right? In your own dreams and aspirations and goals. I think that's something else. And a lot again, if we compare it to traditionally speaking, what we've always seen, women have sacrificed so much, right? In those relationships, in those marriages where you don't hear about their dreams and aspirations. They kind of were left by the wayside. So like my parents have been married for 51 years. Um, and I know because I remember it wasn't always roses and sunshine, right? But they overcame it and they stayed together, right? But you don't really always know what goes behind, like what happens behind closed doors. So I think it's, you know, when people are like, wow, what's your secret? It's like, well, you you won't really know, even if they tell you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, because it's right. Well, yeah, because it's so different for everyone. Um, that's amazing. 51 years is amazing. My parents divorced when I was two, so it's pretty much the polar opposite.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm so sorry. Um but yeah, I mean, again, it's it it's all different. That so you talked about like being yourself in my first podcast, it was called The Real You, and the genesis behind that was the mask that we all wear, uh, some more than others. But I wore a lot of masks, and part of it was with uh divorced parents, and so you know, I had I was saw my dad separately, lived with my mom, I had uh dad's side of the family, mom's side of the family, then I had neighborhood friends, then I had school friends, then I had sports teams. So I was like kind of a different person in almost every one of those settings. I was constantly like taking one mask off, putting another mask on. Then as I got older, I dropped some of them because I didn't have to deal with those situations as much. But I still, like, especially through work and my career, like I didn't never felt like I could truly be myself. So then as I got like into my 30s and then in my 40s, then I was like, gosh, it's so exhausting. Like trying to remember like who am I supposed to be today or who am I supposed to be in this setting? Like, God, can I just can I just be myself? Like, can I just say what I normally would say? Like, God, it's be so nice if I could do that. So it's interesting that you talk about that. Like, if you're in a relationship and you find yourself like either hiding part of yourself or you're like, oof, I don't know, it doesn't go that well when I'm like this, and then you're like, okay, I won't do that. Like you have to that's really be aware of that because you really want as much as possible to be with someone that you can just like let your guard down and be like, This is who I am. Like, if you and if that's not if that's not for you, then that's fine.

SPEAKER_04:

But and it's funny that you say the hiding part because I've often faced this um when I'm dating someone, is you know, you come into my condo, number one is zen. So like everyone says the same thing, like, wow, it's like so zen here. I'm like, don't get too comfortable because you're leaving. So like this is my zen.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't build this for you.

SPEAKER_04:

Exactly. But I have on my coffee table what I call my little altar, and it's got crystals, and I have angels, and I have feathers, and you know, on my wall here, which you can't see, but I I keep it up intentionally, and this is the beauty of living on your own, is you can put shit on your wall and no one has to see it. But I have like my white long lined paper, and it has my affirmations on there, and you know, my my pillars of you know, that I I stand by in like my life, my business. And there has been a few instances where someone new comes in, I'm like, oh shit, I gotta hide, like you know, I I don't want them to see I don't want them to see this, yeah. Because I didn't know how to explain it. And then I also didn't want like the judgment. I feared the judgment and like any projection of like, no, this is like my private stuff. So since then, I've number one, obviously, I'm not gonna let anyone anyone into my space that I don't feel a hundred percent like comfortable and safe with, but now actually I've left it and it it's like the complete opposite. And no one's actually ever said anything negative. Everyone's actually often intrigued and it sparks a really interesting conversation. And it's a good way for me to see how people respond when I'm letting in them into like a very small part of my world, right? Because if they're gonna ro react weird, then I just know like, oh, thank you so much. Like, thank God for showing me that being revealing, right? Because now I'm never gonna see you again.

SPEAKER_00:

You made it easy.

SPEAKER_04:

Exactly, exactly. So that's part of the authenticity part is and even at work, actually, going back to my corporate days, I remember, you know, also just not really sure how do I like share this like spiritual side of me, how do I talk about it? And actually, it was towards the very end of my time where I ended up discovering one of my colleagues who was also pretty spiritually inclined. And she was like a Reiki master. And I was like, I'm like, Leah, I didn't know that you No idea. No, and she's like, we're having this like you know, water cooler moment at a sales meeting where we're both at, and she's like, Oh yeah, they're telling me that you need to ground more. I was like, My guides are talking to you. So it was like a beautiful moment, and and it made me realize like had I had the courage and found or even just created the opportunities to let people into that, what that could have done for some of these relationships that the Yeah, it's hard, it's harder.

SPEAKER_00:

I think you know, it's it's when you get older, it's easier because you we just give less fucks, right? Like you just you go through enough and then you're just like I I just this is it. Like you just are the these are the cards. Like I'm not changing, I'm no longer shuffling the deck. Like these are the fucking cards. You like them or you don't. And but but but younger, we don't it's hard much harder because we we we have a lot more judgment, we we're a little more careful, we want people to like us, whether it's a partner or friend, coworker, whatever. So we're we're a little we're a little more guarded, we we're not sure. Age and maturity and life experience definitely helps start to be like, all right, like I I just can't pretend anymore, or I just can't hide this part of me anymore. Like this is just who I am. So like you either accept this and you're good, or you're not. If you're not, that's fine. Like there are other there are other options. But when you're in when you're like 25, you're like, nope, that's gotta be it. I gotta make this one where I gotta force this one or whatever. Like it's just different, it's weird psychologically.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

But it's so freeing. And that's part of why I'm having a hard time like going back to work because I don't I just don't fit in an office. Like I don't it's it's just not I'm not really wired to be a coworker. Like I don't want to hear about your weekend, I don't care about your kids' baseball game. I don't and I don't hide that much anymore. It's like the look on my face is typically like, I don't know why we're still talking.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And then they're like, oh, that guy's a dick. He's not very friendly. It's like, no, that's actually just who he is. He doesn't care about your he doesn't want us to talk to me.

SPEAKER_04:

The problem is, is like if we really get honest about corporate environments, um, there is still a lot of inauthenticity.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Like for me, you strike me as someone who really is authentic and you feel very comfortable in who you are. And in my experience, it's been such where when you do, you know, get into environments where you can tell when people aren't being authentic and they're not being true to your, that's frustrating. That's annoying. And it makes it hard to be around over a long period of time.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Because then it starts to influence you if you want to stay in that environment. And imagine then having to show up and work day after day, it does take its toll on you. So I feel like that could be also just an element for some people, maybe for yourself when you think about it.

SPEAKER_00:

It's like well, my problem was the older I got, the more honest I was. And so I would just tell people like that idea is not gonna work.

SPEAKER_04:

Um, you didn't think that would take and that's also honest.

SPEAKER_00:

And then they would be like, We don't want you, that's not why you're here. Like, we don't want your opinion. Like, I'm gonna give it anyway. Um I was I was on a I had a phone screen yesterday for a job I don't want, which is a whole other story, but at the end of the 30 minutes, and I didn't think they still asked this question, especially on a phone screen, but they asked me like where I saw myself in five years. Which is like just so cliched. Um it just it's just such a bad question because like most of us are just trying to get through like the next five days and then five months, I don't know, like five years, like does anybody say that with like such a very inexperienced recruiter or whoever you spoke to. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I get I mean I didn't say what the first thing that popped into my head because that would have they would have hung up on me. But um, I also didn't give like a very clear answer because I was just like, I don't I don't know. But yeah, like as I've gotten older, I definitely and definitely finding online the online space has helped a lot, like creating content and writing content. It forces me to think, and I have I'm going through a lot of these situations, whether it was childhood or it's a lot of work type stuff, and I so writing and thinking about it is is is cathartic and it's an evolutionary it's an evolution process where you look back at situations, write about them, and then you see them and you process them differently. And so that helps to be more honest and like knowing what lane I'm supposed to be driving in now and all that kind of stuff. Um but again that takes time and not everybody's posting comments.

SPEAKER_04:

It does. And it's a journey. It's a journey, right? Like, you know, when when you're looking to really be more true to who you are and lead with more authenticity, it's not a one and done. You know, there's no time frame because you have to also think how much conditioning we've had over the years and what society's messaging is when it tells you to just show up as who you are, but then, you know, in reality on the ground, when you do, you'll get different, you know, uh projections and different um reactions to that authenticity. Uh and so you're you really are, you know, on this continuum of aligning yourself and really discovering who you are and understanding who you are. And um part of that comes with a lot of disappointing other people as well.

SPEAKER_00:

And that's yeah, and I think it's being, I think you get to the point where you're okay with disappointing people. Because it's like you're like, this is just who I am. And if you're not okay with that, then like that's cool.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_00:

Like it doesn't bother me. Um what advice if someone's out there struggling, whether it's what no matter what the relationship or multiple areas of their relationships, what um like what could they do? What what small steps that not like totally change the world, change their life steps, which seem too big? Typically it starts smaller, obviously. Um like what are what's one or two things they could start to notice, observe, think about, reflect on that could start to shift uh the the movement in their favor.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, so I mean, number one is you have to be honest with yourself and you have to be willing to look in the mirror because so often when we're trying to make any sort of change, it's very easy to project out onto the world and say, well, if he does this, then I can do that. Right. Or if this changes, then I can do X. I'll be more comfortable to do X. And it really has to start with you. So you have to be honest with where you're at in your life and what do you desire for your reality? Are you looking for more fulfillment in your relationships, romantically, your friendships, work, family, then what does that look like? And what is your role in that? So honesty and really doing a sincere and in-depth audit on your role in that dynamic, which means if you're expecting people, because I love the world expecting, to expect you to give me your all. Are you giving your all? And what does that look like? Right. Um, you know, you want people to I don't know, in include you more. Do you include others? Right. So it's always about reflecting on your part in that dynamic, but you have to be honest. And I think um a lot of the times people say they're doing something or they believe they are, and they're really not. Okay. Right. And so this isn't to condemn you. We we don't want to be pro, you know, being so judgmental and critical of ourselves. We want to lead with compassion when you're doing a very sincere audit. Um, but you do have to be honest with where you're at and what your role is in that. And then honestly, take the one micro step that allows you to make a shift. And that might be it, right? That might be for the first time in my life, I'm actually vocalizing and saying, I'm not okay with this relationship anymore. Or these friendships. How many times do we hear people? Oh, I've known her since kindergarten. Okay. Um, you know, she she does this a little bit and she hasn't been great here. So why are you still friends with her?

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Right. And and I have to preface this with like a caveat. This doesn't mean with a sledgehammer start cutting people off, you know, because that's also like pretty toxic when we're just kind of slaying, like, you're out, you're out. But it's just about being honest with the relationships that you do have in your life as well. And so who are the people that uplift you? Who are the people that are respecting you and actually value you? Do they treat you well? Do they accept you for who you are and all of who you are? We evolve, right? And we go through growth spurts and changes where maybe in a season or a stage of your life, you weren't your greatest, right? Maybe you weren't disrespectful to people, but you just weren't your best. So did they love you then? Or did they take off because you're like, what the hell is this? Like, yeah, it'll be not my cup of tea, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Look for the people that can accept you and grow with you. And it's okay if it ends up being, you know what? After I did the audit, after I was honest with myself, I realized two out of these five friendships is no longer aligning with who I am and where I want to go.

SPEAKER_01:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, no, I think that I think that's what those are great tips. And I think the energy point there you made towards the end, that's something I'm tried trying to pay more attention to in my own life, relationships, decisions that I'm making, and like really trying to assess how they're affecting my energy. Because I didn't do that for a long time and I would ignore it. So it would affect my energy negatively, but I would do it anyway because it seemed like the smart thing or the logical thing or whatever. And then you know, I'd get into it and be like, this doesn't make me feel good. I'm not aligned, and then you just whatever you can get on a path like that, and then you just keep struggling with it. Um, but I think especially with like people, I notice it more in person, but you can do it on you can do it online as well. But like, do they like how do they make you feel, right? Is your energy good or does it rise with them, or is it draining, or you're like, oh, I'm so exhausted after spending an hour with them, or whatever. Um, I think that's a real indicator of everything else. Like if you're not sure, measure your energy.

SPEAKER_04:

For sure. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes you don't notice it because, like, for example, you might be the friend that everyone comes to for advice. And it's like, okay, but at some point there's gotta be a boundary where you can't be the therapist, the counselor, the psychologist all the time. Right. There's gotta be, okay, I'm happy to give you some guidance, I'm happy to listen. But maybe after a certain point of hearing the same conversation 10 times over and nothing changing because they don't want to change, that you say, Listen, sweetheart, why don't you call a therapist? Because you know, like I gotta keep some of this behind the paid wall, you know? Like, I'm not even charging you. So I you would never say that to a friend, but you know what I mean. So there's there's boundaries there, but absolutely check in with your energy and it is a good indication. But understanding why is it are they taking so much from you? Are they expecting like are you always the one that's giving? Is it imbalanced because maybe you're the one initiating plans, you're the always the one that's calling? Little things that you may not take stock of, but then when you're spending time with them and you start to think, okay, well, the last six months we've done all these things, and I've been the one to do most of them. Um, and then maybe right now there's a period where they're just siphoning you, and it's sometimes so subtle, like you won't even be able to specify or pinpoint one thing, but it's just a like some sort of a leeching energy. It's a tricky one. Pay attention.

SPEAKER_00:

It's all it's all tricky in life and relationships. Yeah. Um, well, this has been great. Uh, we could go a couple more hours and there's a lot of different directions to go. We'll we'll pause it here for now. Um super grateful you came on. Love your insight. Um, tell people if they're interested in learning more. I know you do a yearly event uh in Toronto around May time frame, I believe. Um, and then working with you. If you want to talk about that, I'll put it in the show notes as well. But if you want to plug that, uh if if people are interested in learning more, uh, how to find you.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm very active on LinkedIn. You can find me there also on Instagram. Um, you can find me there. The content more or less is the same. Um, all my services you can find on my website. The event for next year, her leads experience is happening in May. Um, that will be coming out uh probably in the new year sometime in terms of like promotion and details and all that. So, yeah, that's where you can find me.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Well, uh really appreciate your time. Uh, thanks everybody for listening. Um, if you enjoyed this conversation, be sure to follow uh and find Lisa on Instagram and LinkedIn. Uh follow the show, hit like, subscribe. If you want to leave a review, I wouldn't be mad. That really helps other people, uh really helps other people find it. So uh see you next week because what you're looking for, it's not out there, it's underneath. Thanks, Lisa.

SPEAKER_04:

Thanks, David.